Curse

spellsword · Jun 22, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

We are customers. If we aren't happy with the product, we have a right to complain.

Patrick Smit · Jun 22, 2007, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

It's a sweet irony. The pessimism which I've been flamed relentlessly for is now commonplace among these forums.

Regardless, this topic doesn't make a good distinction between ArenaNet bashing and ArenaNet critisizing. Bashing is baseless. Valid criticisms, such as those critising Andrew Patrick's post in that Community Relations, are helpful.

Well you (and everyone else) can make the distinction yourself, I guess. I think we agree 100% with eachother.

Critics are always accompanied by arguments. Flames and Bashings are just players opinions, and never argument anything. So flames may be accompanied by critics, but some people are not able to do one without the other. If they would just learn that, then their posts would be perfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spellsword

We are customers. If we aren't happy with the product, we have a right to complain.

Yeah, you may complain, but don't say they don't listen if you have an invalid/unfounded complaint. There are just too much people that complain about stuff just from their optics, and nothing gets argumented, so in that case its just a useless complaint, that doesn't help the good of the game, nor the community playing it.

MrFuzzles · Jun 22, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by spellsword

We are customers. If we aren't happy with the product, we have a right to complain.

I have the right to tell you your father smells of elderberries and that you should quit school and start drugs - freedom of speech and all that. Heck, I have the right to leech faction while afk and leave random arenas repeatedly if there is no monk on my team. Clearly having a right to do something is synonymous with it being the most constructive way of contributing to a cause.

or?..

I've always been a supporter of feedback, if I get "into" a game, I almost always seek out a forum to voice my opinion on it, good or bad. But criticism != complaining. "I liked team arena better when it was 6v6 because it was easier to manage" is constructive criticism. "omg gg anet for breaking HA, I don't understand why you spend so much time adding useless features instead of fixing all the bugs and overpowered classes" is complaining.

Mad King Corn · Jun 22, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

The last few months they have been horrendous. I will let them know that by not buying GW:EN or GW2

Amen to that! My feelings exactly!

Etta · Jun 22, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Ben Affleck's character in Mallrats said it best about all customers, and I agree with him.

Milennin · Jun 22, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Meh, I dislike the bashing, especially the constructive criticism-less bashing. I wish the world could be more like...

spellsword · Jun 22, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

While it is true that constructive critic is preferable, the other kind is important too. It lets the developers know that the users aren't happy with certain aspects of the game. What I am trying to say is that complains and bashing are worse than good, thorough posts, but better than not voicing ones opinion at all.

mr_groovy · Jun 22, 2007, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Well Anet has outdone them selves the last updates to nerf everything to hell.
At first it was fun farming in Hard Mode. We got lots of golds, but now. I've been killing dozens on dozens in HM. And what do I have to show for it? Not a single gold this morning. I think this is new way for anet have a solution against spam.
Let's see Less gold drops -> Less things to sell -> Less sell spam -> Less buy spam too because they aren't getting any money.

Lately I have the feeling that anet wants us in pve just to play the missions with chars, get titles hope for the occasional rare green, gold drop and that's it. And this is a VERY sad development.
So yes I understand, and agree fully that there is bashing because people are getting frustated. Hell I am getting frustated. And don't tell me that I should play the storyline now. I recently got a new necro through cantha, and my ele through Elona. (Which gave me on both adventures absolutely nothing worthwhile, and about 10K or less in drops ). Also got my Legendary Carto on my warrior, so I've been on the title road too.

I want to farm now to get some nice stuff either to sell, or to keep. But lately it's just not worth the effort anymore.

And it's not because I don't know how, or where to farm. The drop rate just S*cks in Hard Mode and even worse in Normal.
/end rant & bash| telling the truth

Orphan Anthem · Jun 22, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Yeah im pretty sick of all the ANET bashing, they have a gameplan and they fallow that. if any of us acually make a valad point they take it into consideration and see if it can be done.

Some of the bashing is justified but in general people are just whinning to get the changes they want done.

Like the whole kurz/lux title track is just such a grind so they doubled the reward for it. i feel sorry but all the people that donated before the change but how cna you complain now

Fril Estelin · Jun 22, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by OI-812

We have money, which they want. It is up to them to EARN that money.

[bashing mode]
What a joke! Saying that about a serious MMO that has no monthly fee and which interacts with its community! With daily updates, monthly modifications, countless features implemented based on community's suggestions. With PvE and PvP, with 2 expansions that modify the original game, regular original events.

Ths "customer" is NOT always right, you're the definitive proof of that. You deserve the bashing.
[/bashing mode]

GW is definitive VALUE FOR MONEY, I got my 3 games for a total of £50/75€/100$ with hundreds of hours of gameplay in my past and into my future! For this money, what would I have ... with WoW for example? 8 months of furious gaming (thanks, no thanks!)... 4 or 6 good offline games?

I guess that not everyone can appreciate a great thing when they have it in front of them. The more you give, the more some people want! Free GW anyone? Anet to develop your own very specific version of GW for you and your friends? With daily new content and missions, the best graphics with the most efficient rendering and networking? ...

around · Jun 22, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I 'bash' ANet because I don't like the way they look in magazine interviews.

You have to remember that the people who complain are the people who actually like the game and don't want to see it turn into a flaming pile of shit. Those who grow too disillusioned just leave the game without saying anything.

Fril Estelin · Jun 22, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

a flaming pile of shit.

Are you sure it's not rather a case of your feelings for the game turning into this disgusting pile? Because I doubt one can say that about GW with strong and solid arguments ...

We all like the game (if not, go try another one I guess), but I'm not sure we do so the same way. Anet deserves their success after years of hard and continued work. We paid a small price for a great game, we all have our views on how to make it better for us, but do we understand the GW community so well?

Cacheelma · Jun 22, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

I'm more sick and tired of some of my fellow Anet's fanboi fanatics than anything.

shirosae · Jun 22, 2007, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Dear Poster,

I'm going to assume that by 'bashing' you do not mean legitimate complaints directed at Anet. I'll get to people who do refer to legitimate complaints directed at Anet in a moment.

My opinion is this:

Someone bashing something (such as Anet, or a recent update, or whatever) has two possible reasons for doing so.

1) They're upset with something (in the game), and are angry about it. Either they can't articulate that, or won't explain it properly out of anger or resentment or such. Or they can articulate that, and do, but appear somewhat angry.

2) They're trolling.

Either they have a genuine objection or concern, or they don't.

In response to that, i have two options. I can look at what they say, and see if i can make any sense out of it. If i can discern an argument, i can actively try to make it right - in my mind's eye. If i can do that, this person has a point - regardless of that person's intent (whether i think they're trolling or not). A valid point is a valid point, even if it's presented in the middle of a huge idiotic flame and they've just gotten lucky with a paragraph.

As such, my usual response to everything is to try to see anything worthwhile in it.

Because of this, person (1) has their concerns heard, and if i'm in a position where i can do something about it, i can do my part. Also, person (2) gets really frustrated and gives up or tries harder to troll until he breaks the rules and gets banned/sacked/arrested/sent to a penal colony on Mars.

If, instead, i decide that i'm going to throw a mood-swing, complain and rage-quit the thread while screaming OMG U R A TROLL QQ MORE WHINER, person (1) just loses faith in my ability to understand and process english, while person (2) gets a big smug grin because i've just given them the rise they were looking for.

I can't see any rational behaviour other than reading posts properly, attempting to see any genuine reason within them, and ignoring everything else.

Because of that, i don't find the 'Anet bashing' nearly as tiring as the Legendary Defender of Arenanet fanboy posts which attempt to reduce all posts not gushing in adoration of Anet to 'QQ more what do u want an invincibility button u need 2 work for ur obsidien also progrming is rely hard u shuld go back 2 schol'*.

I do think that Arenanet's heart is in the right place. I reckon that they do try to balance PvP over PvE (which is fair enough, in my opinion, PvE has much greater flexibility for balance, even if Anet don't seem to be willing to take advantage of that to compensate for PvP nerfs). I also think that they don't particularly understand PvP, and attempt to apply PvE-style nerfs to skills, not understanding that the two aren't the same thing.

I also think they have a huge tendency to over-think things, turning what should be simple additions (See: PvE only skills), into ridiculously overblown things which don't work properly because they've been tied into everything else.

Now, neither of the above are whining or bashing. They're just opinions, possibly (probably) wrong. But if Anet isn't perfect (and they themselves seem to admit that they are not), then they need feedback from the players. If they're clever, they'll attempt to draw feedback from any source they can, even the ridiculous flamefests. Angry people are still angry for a reason. It is in their interests to know and understand those reasons.

The people who would insist that the above are whining and bashing, contribute precious nothing to the argument. Unless they do - but then they're not just misinterpeting the above, because they have an argument to put forward.

That is to say, people who say nothing but 'omg QQ more you should stop bashing Anet' are on a level with actual trolls. Except that trolls usually aren't so self-righteously annoying.

*I am aware that this is almost a strawman argument, since most fanboys don't actually type like this. I find it difficult to resist, though, and the point isn't dependant on the misspelling.

Culturally appropriate postscript,
Spiderman

around · Jun 22, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

I 'bash' ANet because I don't like the way they look in magazine interviews.

You have to remember that the people who complain are the people who actually like the game and don't want to see it turn into a flaming pile of shit. Those who grow too disillusioned just leave the game without saying anything.

way2takequotesoutofcontext.

Next.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 22, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

I would like to give a few definitions of terms used on this forum.

1. Fanboy is a term used to describe an individual (usually male, though the feminine version fangirl may be used for females) who is utterly devoted to a single fannish subject.

2. Constructive criticism (often shortened to 'CC' or 'concrit') is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

3. Whine to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way.

4. Flame to insult or criticize angrily in an electronic message.

First I would like to say I am a GW fanboy and am proud of it, and so is everyone else who posts on this forum according to the definition. I find nothing wrong with constructive criticism as it is a valid way to construe ones point of view of a situation. If the forum was to stick to constructive criticism I would have no problem. The problem I have is that I see way to much whining and flaming on this forum (see above definitions). Now I will prepare myself to be bashed by the whiners and flamers.

5. Bash To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly

Gawa · Jun 22, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

I try to keep my posts short (yet the reality is, to support oneself in a manner that may be clear to some people it often requires more than a few words. Ive also found that being faced with people who somehow think that complaining is the same as flaming...(see Spellsword's post) makes this neigh on impossible.) since those who would benefit from the good advice that i and others are giving, either do not bother to read posts longer than a couple of paragraphs or they choose to disregard them to the detriment of the rest of us.

What Risky Ranger and others have said here as I and many others have said before, is irrefutable (no one can reasonably claim otherwise):

'Bashing' and 'flaming' is wrong.

All the time.

Yet in this forum it continues and it gets worse.

Why? Because it is allowed to.

As shirosae commented, people do this because "either they can't articulate [that], or won't explain it properly out of anger or resentment or such..[snip]..or they're trolling.

We cant help someones inarticulation; yet being inarticulate or lacking in manners is no excuse to tolerate bashing or flaming.

If someone is being resentful and bashing and flaming on purpose...yet again, no reason to tolerate that.

Yet it is tolerated. Once it is tolerated, it is accepted as the 'norm' and thus over time becomes less 'bad'.

Forget about the fact that the forum rules clearly lay out that flaming, bashing, non contributive posts are not welcome and will not be tolerated.

A lot of people here could also do well to take a lesson in forum etiquette.

In closing, if we the community can not get through to some people that flaming and bashing is DESTRUCTIVE to the GW community rather than constructive... then:

it falls squarely to the Mods and Admins of the forum to take action and once again show that it is not acceptable to bash or flame.

(this will not be easy for guru, no one likes to appear to be the 'spoilsport'. However, this forum should not have and does not have to have this aggressive undertone running through it. It can be repaired over time.)

It is sad that some people see this as a fight between ANet fanbois and those that are upset at ANet..... that is completely wrong and a little childish.

Rather it is simply that some of us know it is wiser to not breed an environment of hate, and that we have the strength of belief to stand up against what is wrong.

Lack of condemnation is tantamount to condoning flaming and bashing.

Didnt read my avatar as suggested in my last post? Don't read my signature now then.

GodofAcid · Jun 22, 2007, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Expressing your opinion is fine, however it should be reasonable. That's a word alot of people on these forums need to look up: reasonable. If Anet is sitting around clearly avoiding doing their job which is improving this game, then people have all the right to complain. This is a product that we all paid for, and we have the right to expect it to be maintained. However, alot of people take it overboard. When Anet is doing an adequate job of trying to maintain the game and people feel the need to pick at them for every minor detail, those people need to cut it out.

An example of this is when Anet addresses a major issue and people complain about prioritizing. Hey, if they're working to fix things, leave them alone. If your issue is a serious concern to the community as you feel it is, then they will get to it. Express your concerns so they're aware of those issues, and then sit back and let them do their job at that point. If a lengthy amount of time goes by (and I don't mean one week, again, refer to the word reasonable) and nothing has been done, THEN you have every right to speak up and be critical about that particular issue. Picking at them when they're clearly trying to do the right thing is not reasonable. There are times when that criticism is valid because at times, maintaining the product has been neglected. Pick your battles. This message goes out to all those who have put up posts about their issues not being prioritized. This is a community, not just you, and it does not revolve around you. Learn to look at the greater community, not just yourselves.

This is a topic that I don't feel can be used as an umbrella, because it's all relative to the specific situation at hand. I went off on a bit of a rant there, but hopefully the message will not be wasted.

Inde · Jun 22, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Well I'll pop in and comment on one issue in this thread. The problem with everyone's interpretation of this problem is that what one person considers a flame another person does not. I've seen a lot of you call someone out for flamebait on another forum user because YOU feel attacked when I can run a persons post by several people and others will see nothing wrong with it.

A discussion can be negative and not have flaming in it. Some of you don't believe that though. If it's negative and YOU disagree with it then you consider it flaming/bashing. It's only someone's interpretation of flaming that can be debated. Please do not accuse the mods of "not doing anything about this" because your own personal opinion differs from theirs.

The community is restless. This happens EVERY time between chapters.

It's called a "trend" and the moderators on this forum are more then aware how these all play out. Deleting out whatever anyone else considers a 'negative' opinion is not good moderating. The community wants to have a voice on issues and we allow you to have that voice. I can delete out someone's post saying "anet sucks" and be called a "fanboy site" while there's plenty of other 'negative opinions' in a thread. I can delete out a one-liner saying 'good job anet' that doesn't contribute to a thread and be called an 'anti-anet site'. Again, all perspective people.

I can guarantee that I see more posts then nearly anyone else reading this thread. I read more fansites, more guild sites, more blogs, news articles and more on Guild Wars then nearly all of you. I know the overall opinion of a community. Let me stress again that a 'negative' opinion does not equal flamebait. We delete out hundreds of posts every day on this forum. We edit and close hundreds.

The bashing that you all see going on... there are right now more positive threads on the front page then negative. I do believe some of you are choosing to close yourself off and that you purposely like to open up any thread that is controversial just to prove your own point and say "see all the bashing going on?!". There are a lot of issues with Guild Wars right now, people have strong opinions and express those opinions because they hope and are involved in this game. They care! Otherwise they would just bypass posts entirely.

I also believe that some of you are choosing to ignore some of the problems Guild Wars has in favor of blindly following a game and it's developers. Wow, yes I know I'm being very blunt here. It all boils down to this (yeah this will probably be the closest to flaming you'll ever see coming from me) I don't mind Anet bashing or negative opinions. I believe that you are trying to send a message and I carefully weigh whether your posts cross a line i.e. insults, unconstructive one-liners, etc. I don't want to silence that. Quite frankly what I'm tired of is the whining. !!!!!! I said it. The whining about the complainers, the whining over whether a build has been nerfed, the whining because you feel Anet is being bashed. So.... there you go. And guess what, I allow that too. Because I feel your voice needs to be heard just as much as what you consider a basher or flame.

fenix · Jun 22, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Well I'll pop in and comment on one issue in this thread. The problem with everyone's interpretation of this problem is that what one person considers a flame another person does not. I've seen a lot of you call someone out for flamebait on another forum user because YOU feel attacked when I can run a persons post by several people and others will see nothing wrong with it.

A discussion can be negative and not have flaming in it. Some of you don't believe that though. If it's negative and YOU disagree with it then you consider it flaming/bashing. It's only someone's interpretation of flaming that can be debated. Please do not accuse the mods of "not doing anything about this" because your own personal opinion differs from theirs.

The community is restless. This happens EVERY time between chapters.

It's called a "trend" and the moderators on this forum are more then aware how these all play out. Deleting out whatever anyone else considers a 'negative' opinion is not good moderating. The community wants to have a voice on issues and we allow you to have that voice. I can delete out someone's post saying "anet sucks" and be called a "fanboy site" while there's plenty of other 'negative opinions' in a thread. I can delete out a one-liner saying 'good job anet' that doesn't contribute to a thread and be called an 'anti-anet site'. Again, all perspective people.

I can guarantee that I see more posts then nearly anyone else reading this thread. I read more fansites, more guild sites, more blogs, news articles and more on Guild Wars then nearly all of you. I know the overall opinion of a community. Let me stress again that a 'negative' opinion does not equal flamebait. We delete out hundreds of posts every day on this forum. We edit and close hundreds.

The bashing that you all see going on... there are right now more positive threads on the front page then negative. I do believe some of you are choosing to close yourself off and that you purposely like to open up any thread that is controversial just to prove your own point and say "see all the bashing going on?!". There are a lot of issues with Guild Wars right now, people have strong opinions and express those opinions because they hope and are involved in this game. They care! Otherwise they would just bypass posts entirely.

I also believe that some of you are choosing to ignore some of the problems Guild Wars has in favor of blindly following a game and it's developers. Wow, yes I know I'm being very blunt here. It all boils down to this (yeah this will probably be the closest to flaming you'll ever see coming from me) I don't mind Anet bashing or negative opinions. I believe that you are trying to send a message and I carefully weigh whether your posts cross a line i.e. insults, unconstructive one-liners, etc. I don't want to silence that. Quite frankly what I'm tired of is the whining. !!!!!! I said it. The whining about the complainers, the whining over whether a build has been nerfed, the whining because you feel Anet is being bashed. So.... there you go. And guess what, I allow that too. Because I feel your voice needs to be heard just as much as what you consider a basher or flame.

Hear ye, hear ye. Thread is over.

Inde = win, basically.

Who cares if people are posting anti-Anet things, unless Anet themselves have an issue with it, don't post stupid whine posts saying that it's mean to flame Anet. All companies have to deal with flak, and if Anet can't do it, then it's their own fault. As the saying goes; if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.